[Edgar]

Thiugh I never kept a sleep diary, here are,roughly,my sleep patterns from before (in the course of a week):

Day 1: 7 hrs – felt great

Day 2: 7 hrs – felt great

Day 3: 7 hrs – felt great

Day 4: 6 hrs – felt okay

Day 5: 0 hrs – felt terrible

Day 6: 5 hours – felt okay

Day 7: 7 hours – felt great

So, as you can see, I had good sleep about 80% of the time, and bad about 20%.

My “new” sleep pattern:

Day 1: 5 hrs – felt exhausted

Day 2: 6 hrs – exhausted

Day 3: 5 hrs – exhausted

Day 4: 6 hrs – exhausted

Day 5: 7 hrs – okay

Day 6: 6 hrs – exhausted

Day 7: 5 hrs – exhausted

And on and on.

 

So, my sleep shifted from feeling good mist of the time, then horrible some of the time, to feeling exhausted almost ALL of the time.

I also have to mention that the sleep from before was all natural, no pills, and this new one is with the help of Valium, so maybe that has something to do with the whole thing , too.

All I’m saying is thay I, personally, would love to get back on the first kind of sleep. So what if I have an occasional nil sleep night, if most others will be okay? It’s far better than this constant state of exhaustion.

But who knows how sleep functions in other people.

The only thing I know for sure is that counting sleep in “hours slept” is a useless effort. 6 hrs for me is not the same as 6 hrs for someone else.

[Edgar]

And also (and sorry,really, for “hogging” the topic) – if somebody asked me on my bad nights before if I would rather sleep for 6 hrs steadily every night, I would immediately say “yes!” But now that I know what it’s really like to never, ever, feel rested and okay, I wish I could go back to what it was like before.

I am certainly asking my neuro about this on the next appointment, if it’s normal to feel THIS exhausted after 6 hrs of (albeit chemically helped) sleep, so I’ll see what he says. But I have read that these “early morning awakenings” zap the sufferer’s energy during the day, so …

[SIimon]

Edgar, Valium like other ‘sleep drugs’ does not send you into the restorative stages of sleep  – 3 (deep sleep) and 4 (REM sleep) so if you have say 3 hours sleep induced by valium you will feel worse than 3 hours of ‘normal’ sleep.

Also I am stating the obvious here but any type of broken sleep where you don’t complete a full sleep cycle will leave you feeling worse. These generally last 75-90 minutes and ideally we should get 5 per night to feel at our best.

 

 

[Edgar]

Hi, Simon,

I agree, i.e. I know about Valium’s reported effect on the quality of sleep, though I have to say, again  from personal experience, that on the rare occassions when I manage to get 7 hrs of sleep on Valium, I feel as good as I did on my natural 7 hrs nigths. And also, it took 3-4 months of this kind of living for me to even consider trying Valium, so I think I was just as exhausted sleeping less than 7 hrs in my natural sleep days.

So natural sleep or not, 7-7.5 hours is my goal and what my body needs.

I tried, a few times, some actual sleeping pills (in very small doses). One did nothing for me, and the other one was terrible – not only did it not put me to sleep, it made my mind completely sc*ewed the next day, in a way that I can’t really explain. It wasn’t like I was drunk, it was something else. So, Valium (and occassional Xanax, which are I think from the same family) is the best thing that I tried so far. When it works, it works well, and when it doesn’t then I’m just generally tired because I didn’t sleep, no added drugged effect on my mind.

Yes, we need to complete our sleep cycles, and if day in and day out we get one cycle less than our body needs, that is a lot of sleep debt that needs to be “payed back”. That’s where power naps would come in great and sleeping in would come in great, for those that are able to do that.

[Edgar]

Carls, when you say “no sleep for weeks on end”, what does that mean for you, specifically? I’m not starting a brawl here, I’m honestly asking.

If it really were NO sleep for weeks, you would be dead, so of course it’s not literally no sleep, but how much sleep do you get? How long have you had this?

[Edgar]

<p style=”text-align: center;”>Damn, I see now that I have written just the thing you first inquired about, sry.</p>

[Carls]

Hi Edgar

I have consistent nights where I lie awake all night or I lightly doze for a short period when I am neither awake nor asleep.

Would you really die?

[Edgar]

Hi carls.

Yes, in theory. But even light sleep is sleep, and the fact that you’re still alive shows that it can’t just up and kill you.

Why would you immediately jump from “I can’t sleep” to “Will I die”, though?

I do believe that lack of sleep can leave some damage on the brain, but I never though it could kill you. I mean, technically it can, indirectly, through things like car crashes or the development of illnesses like epilepsy  which can then, in rare cases, kill you. I have epilepsy, but it doesn’t have to be that I developed it because of sleep deprivation.

But lack of sleep directly killing you, no. Try to get thoughts like that out of your head, if you can.

[Martin Reed]

This discussion is a good example of why evaluating sleep solely on sleep duration is not helpful.

We all need different amounts of sleep. One person may only need five hours of sleep to feel great, another person may need six.

When it comes to insomnia, the primary complaint is fatigue (not sleepiness). Interestingly, fatigue is associated more with inactivity during the day than it is a lack of sleep. More on that in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvUG_JcKFpM

Although insufficient sleep might lead to an increased risk of a car accident, there is not one documented event of someone with chronic insomnia falling asleep at the wheel — because people with chronic insomnia are highly fatigued during the day, not excessively sleepy.

In other words, people with insomnia are “tired but wired” — the body responds to our lack of sleep by giving us an extra boost to keep us awake and to get us through the day.

If you are excessively sleepy during the day (ie you fall asleep at random times without warning) then there is another issue involved that needs to be addressed.

Finally, to reinforce Edgar’s point, there is no evidence that chronic insomnia causes any health problem whatsoever. A couple of supplementary videos on this can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoX04HJihNI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnVHQpVmFLw

—

If you are ready to stop struggling with insomnia you can enroll in the online insomnia coaching course right now! If you would prefer ongoing phone or video coaching calls as part of a powerful three month program that will help you reclaim your life from insomnia, consider applying for the Insomnia Clarity program.

The content of this post is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.

[Carls]

Thank you Edgar and Martin

thats exactly how I feel Martin “tired but wired” and fatigued during the day rather than sleepy cause no matter how tired I am during the day I would not just fall asleep like some people can.

thanks for the links also.

[Carls]

Sorry Edgar I didn’t answer your question why I mentioned could sleep kill you is because people say to me you would be dead if you continuously did not sleep and I am living proof you do not die from No sleep!!

[Edgar]

Man, I love this thread, thanks guys.

Yes, ‘tired but wired” is the right expression, and especially so since these early morning awakenings began. Before that,my weird inability to nap actually had a silver lining to it, it made me kinda follow a sleep restriction protocol of my own. I never needed to be told to “avoid naps”, sadly I did that on my own.

I agree with what you say, Martin. I would never fall asleep at the wheel, because I don’t get sleepy, just fatigued. I remember reading about a doctor who said that she would rather sit behind a wheel with an insomniac on 2 hrs of sleep than with a normal sleeper who had 6 hrs of sleep. It’s strange, but they’re definitely two different feelings. Sleepy is pleasant, fatigued is rough. Perhaps there really is some truth behind the claim that our genes hold the key, i.e. that our (insomniacs) ancestors were the ones in charge of keeping watch on the tribe and that this trait is now locked in our genes? Certainly an interesting theory.

Martin, I have to say, whereas I do agree that there is no evidence that sleep deprivation can do harm, I wouldn’t be surprised if it did. But I imagine it would be accumulated , long-term harm in the form of an earlier stroke than usual, say.

I do not worry too much about my health, though I suffer from both MS and epilepsy . I am more concerned with the impact of subpar sleep on the quality of my life, which to me honestly is terrible. Days and days of mindless existence, eyes burning, waiting for the next night to hopefully bring some relief, but each one ends the same as the last. I feel like an 80-year old trapped in the mind of a 30-year old.I want to sleep better in order to live better! At the very least, I want to get back to the way I was. I think I would rather suffer through 2-3 completely sleepless nights per week in return for 4-5 solid, good nights that make the next day possible to enjoy.

Carls, I think that when people say what they say, they mean you would die if you didn’t sleep for a minute, which isn’t the case with you, I think. For instance, do you at least occassionally get relief from those no sleep days?

The only people who die from no sleep, as you know, are those poor FFI souls, and they do so due to a clear cause. Don’t get me wrong, reading about them (something neither of us should do but we all end up doing) gets me worried, too. I mean, my sleep seems to be getting shorter and shorter, how far will it go? But the thing is, that disease is genetic, it’s rare, and if somebody in our familylies had it we would probably know.

In conclusion (I really don’t know when to shut up and stop writing), everyone has their own cross to bear, this one is ours. Luck of the draw, I guess. My goal right now is to find out why I’m this fatigued when everyone says I shouldn’t really be, and then to see if there is anything I can do about it

[Knackeredagain]

Hi I could have written that post myself, cannot sleep however shattered I am. Night after night 2..3 hours with sleeping aid and yet still no restbite from it. Shattered, fatigued, worn out but sadly, NOT SLEEPY. anyone any ideas. THANKYOU

[Carls]

Hi Edgar

 

yes I do get a little respite but no more than a couple of hours 🙁

[Carls]

I wish I had suggestions knackered again

[Author]

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