[Edgar]

Hi,

I’ve been an insomniac for most of my life. I have defined myself as one, at least.

My problem for as long as I can remember is that I can not nap, or snooze, or sleep in even for a minute. It sounds trivial, but it’s living torture, believe me. My days are a haze and my quality of life is very, very low.

When I was younger and had more energy, and perhaps slept a bit better at night, not being able to nap or take a snooze to relieve at least some of the pressure off was not that big of a deal. It was hard, but manageable. I admit, I used a lot of coffee to get me through the day at that time.

But, for the last decade, my night sleep is almost always insufficient. I get around 4 or 5 hours a night, wake up and can never go back to sleep.

That kind of living is killing me. I have developed multiple sclerosis and epilepsy, and it’s hard to function on all levels.

So, my question is, how is it possible that some people sleep even less? I’ve read so often online but can not imagine. I myself am barely functioning with what I get. I know we are all different but sleeping for 1-2 hours a day, without naps and snoozes I feel would be too much for the human body to endure. So are all those examples cases of sleep misperception? From my own experience speaking with my family members with insomnia, they all sleep more than they think. They say they didn’t sleep at all, but I hear them snoring. They nap during the day but don’t count that in their total sleep time. And they fall asleep watching TV here and there for a few minutes. They are perhaps not aware of this.

The reason I am asking this is not to prove anybody wrong, or to diminish anyone’s suffering, we are all fighting a difficult fight, only in different ways.

The reason I am asking is that I fear I myself will one day sleep even less than I already do. I can not imagine living like that and I fear for my future.

I suspect underlying anxiety or conditioned response is the reason for my situation. I have tried various drugs, to no avail.

As for sleep restriction, I sadly live it. I don’t have to “resist naps”, I can’t get them even with therapy.

In other words – is this normal insomnia? Can CBTi help in case this is anxiety that manifested as insomnia? Is there really a possibility that one day I can fall to even less hours of sleep a day, every day, for years and years? Please say it isn’t so, I am already struggling as it is.

I hope someone responds, and thanks in advance.

Edgar

• This topic was modified 1 weeks, 5 days ago by Edgar.
• This topic was modified 1 weeks, 5 days ago by Edgar.
• This topic was modified 1 weeks, 5 days ago by Edgar.

[Bronte]

Hi Edgar. I feel so sad for you and your situation. I don’t have MS or epilepsy but I do have terrible insomnia like you. I can’t see any reason why yours would get worse. I try to tell myself not to worry about things that haven’t happened because it’s a waste of energy as it may never happen.

I have had insomnia for most of my life. Like you, I don’t have nights where I recover I just continue to have either no sleep at all, or I sleep for about 3 hours max. I agree that many people underestimate how much sleep they actually have but in my case I am sitting up in bed reading and know I haven’t slept.

Recently I thought I had found a way to improve my sleep by changing my mindset. I told myself it didn’t matter whether I slept, or not and I was going to get on with my life regardless. Unfortunately my improvement was short lived and I slept about 5 hours for 4 nights. I felt so much better and became excited that my life was going to improve and I had found the way, but sadly the anxiety started to creep in again and I would go to bed dreading the insomnia would come back……and it did 😞

I don’t believe that your brain eventually gives in and gives you sleep. I’m so sorry that I can’t say something more positive. To me it feels like I’m in a maze and I can’t find the way out…. but everyone else knows the way. There’s some special path that you need to take but I can’t find it. Like you I feel wretched every day. Can’t sleep in the day either. Can’t think clearly, feel like my brain is no longer functioning properly.

My only suggestion is mind/body work which helps you to uncover your suppressed emotions and express them by journaling or speaking it. To release any anger, guilt or sadness from your life, particularly from childhood. I have done a lot of this work by using the Curable app and by reading a lot of books about it and listening to podcasts. It helps you to understand yourself. I suffer from chronic pain and that is part of the condition and happens because the brains neural circuits develop incorrect signals and these become ingrained. The principles of mind/body are to calm your nervous system and help yourself to feel safe.

I have tried CBTi and ACTi. I can’t spend anymore money on these things and for me they didn’t help. I’m so sorry I don’t have any solutions but I strongly wanted you to know that you are not alone. You are coping with such a lot in your life with your conditions and you need validation of how brave you are in dealing with this. You should praise yourself that you are very brave and strong to live with these difficulties.

My only advice is to spend as much time as you can with people, friends, family. I believe we have to fill our lives with as much enjoyable things as we can. The more you do that, the less time there is for your brain to dwell on anything negative. I believe that my sleep (and your sleep) will eventually get better. I believe that things won’t get worse for you because there is no reason for that to happen. The mind/body techniques teach you to reduce fear. Fear is what feeds the brain and fuels the anxieties. I have had a number of nasty health issues that occurred suddenly and it has left me very fearful and I believe that it is this fear that prevents me from sleeping, as well as a lot of childhood things that affected my nervous system.

I hope that you can feel some reassurance knowing others are suffering the same issues and I hope maybe some of what I’ve said has resonated with you. If you need any good authors for books then let me know. We must remain hopeful and optimistic. I accept the negative thoughts but tell my brain I’m moving on now and don’t need them. I wish you luck and don’t forget to be kind to yourself and give praise for your ability to cope. Good luck!!!

[Edgar]

Thank you for your kind response and comforting words, and I’m sprry you’re going through all this as well.

What a wonderful expression, it is indeed a hamster wheel we got ourselves into.

I’ve read book, tried therapy, tried without therapy, the difference is always negligable.
So yes, I agree that the best approach, the only one in fact, is to cope as best we can.

The possibility of sleeping even less scares me. I really believe people who say those things are exhagerrating at least a bit. I sure hope so.

But, the fear is always there. It’s a thing that, once learned, can not be unlearned. We can only hope to be manage it a little better, and that is what we can strive for. And yes, enjoy the little things when we can.

Thanks again.

[Martin Reed]

Hello Edgar!

To answer your question, I guess it’s possible for some people to sleep less than four or five hours because sleep needs vary from person to person (and even from person to person sleep needs can change on a daily basis).

With that being said, I’ve not heard of anyone who *always* sleeps for less than two hours each night indefinitely. A string of nights of that kind of sleep are possible, but on a permanent basis I’ve not heard of any examples.

As you suggested, sleep misperception might play a role here — studies have found that people with insomnia typically under-report the amount of sleep they get at night (and people without insomnia typically over-report the amount of sleep they get at night).

I’d say that, ultimately, it’s hard to know how much sleep we are actually getting for sure (without overnight polysomnography) because we are asleep when it happens and sleep tracking devices aren’t necessarily accurate.

Nothing you’ve shared in your post strikes me as unique or unusual. You are dealing with all the difficulties associated with the insomnia struggle. I can’t say if or when you might get less sleep or more sleep in the future. And, I am going to guess that your experience tells you that sleep is out of your direct control anyway.

You can, on the other hand, always control your actions — and it’s your actions that might have the biggest influence on whether or not conditions are good for sleep to happen and whether or not sleep becomes an exhausting effort and struggle or is given permission to take care of itself and become effortless.

Moving away from the effort, the trying, and the resistance is usually very difficult and it can also be very scary. There will be ups and downs. It takes ongoing practice and the development of new skills. Not new skills to make sleep happen or control your mind, but new skills to give sleep the opportunity to take care of itself by removing yourself from the process.

I hope there’s something useful here.

—

If you are ready to stop struggling with insomnia you can enroll in the online insomnia coaching course right now! If you would prefer ongoing phone or video coaching calls as part of a powerful three month program that will help you reclaim your life from insomnia, consider applying for the Insomnia Mastery program.

The content of this post is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.

[Edgar]

Thank you for you reply, Martin, and for all the hard work you’ve done for insomniacs over the years.

If you haven’t heard of anybody literally sleeping for that little, then it most probably is very, very rare, or even, like I believe, even impossible. You said it – a few bad nights in a row, sure, but a lifetime of 1-2 hours per day, with no naps, I really think that is literally impossible. Still, when you read one such anegdotal experience after another, you sometimes get scared despite your best judgement, and despite knowing full well of the sleep mispercetion phenomenon. I will keep in mind that it most probably will never happen to me, because it most likely does not literally happen to anyone, or they would be institutionalised and certainly unable to work, type, etc.

My sleep isn’t perfect, 5 hours a day roughly, even 6 often, and it has been like this for decades (stable I mean) and YET I let myself get scared sometimes. Silly.

And you’re exactly right, it is during a string of worse-than-usual nights that I sometimes start to gice those stories some credibility whereas when I’m feeling OK I just ignore them. So yes, the only thing we can control are our actions and the reaction we choose to have to external things that are out of our control.

Thank you.

• This reply was modified 1 weeks, 2 days ago by Edgar.

[Martin Reed]

You’re welcome!

One thing I might add here is that it’s OK to experience fear and to feel scared — that’s a normal human emotion!

—

If you are ready to stop struggling with insomnia you can enroll in the online insomnia coaching course right now! If you would prefer ongoing phone or video coaching calls as part of a powerful three month program that will help you reclaim your life from insomnia, consider applying for the Insomnia Mastery program.

The content of this post is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.

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