[Etty]

I was wondering if someone could advise. I’ve just completed 2 weeks of sleep restriction therapy. 12 AM bed, 6AM rise. I’ve averaged around 4 hrs sleep a night but I’ve had some really difficult nights where I only managed 2 hrs sleep. Very rarely did I get 5 hrs, maybe twice in the two weeks. I suppose my question is I’m now at a stage where I want to increase by 15 minutes. so either go to bed at 1145 or rise at 615 but from what I’m reading this is only recommended if you have a sleep efficiency score of 85% or more and I know that I definitely don’t but I also know that the nights where I’ve only gotten two hours sleep have been a real real struggle the next day and the thought of not moving forward by that 15 minutes is a concern and a worry for me. I’m just wondering what people did if they didn’t have that 85% efficiency score. Is it okay to still increase by 15 minutes? Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

• This topic was modified 3 weeks, 2 days ago by Etty.

[Chee2308]

Hello @etty!

Welcome to the forum. Your question is a very typical one for someone who just started some kind of sleep therapy like sleep restriction, for example.

As someone who has seen and done it all, starting back in 2020, the question of whether adding 15 mins is not really that important imo. What is:

1. What is your purpose of doing sleep restriction? Do you use as some kind of a sleep generator, ie, inducing more sleep than what your body needs? If this is the case, you will be quite disappointed to hear it doesn’t work like this. Nothing induces more sleep other than your body itself. It is in total control not you. The purpose of sleep restriction, aka sleep reorganization, is just to make your body much more likely fall asleep in an allocated window, ie, sleep window, that fits your schedule. It will not make you sleep more than is necessary for your body to function.

2. What is truly the big deal about whether you should add 15mins? What are you really afraid of? Slipping back into insomnia? Then it is poor sleep you are truly afraid about, not whether to add that 15mins or not. Often times like these, it is fear of poor sleep itself that makes you harder to doze off. People are essentially losing sleep over sleep.

Sleep is not a consciously controllable mechanism so worrying about it is essentially unnecessary and counterproductive. Have a thought about this and decide what’s best for you. If you prefer to spend an extra 15 mins in bed and not caring how it might affect future sleep, please go ahead.

Sleep works exactly like hunger, the more you deprive yourself of it, the more you are likely to get it. It is as simple as that and not some black mysterious indecipherable box that you must figure out, sleep is really that simple, it just comes from sufficient accumulated wakefulness. Most people get adequately sleepy from 16-18 hours of continued wakefulness. Let go of your preconceived notions and do it naturally. You came into this world with the innate ability of sleeping, no special skill or knowledge is required and this time is no different. Good luck.

[Etty]

Hi Chee2308

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I’ve been following Martin and listening to all his advice so I am very aware that I cannot control sleep and that sleep will happen when I have built up enough sleep drive.
My question has to do with the actual sleep restriction training programme and its implementation. Adding an extra 15 minutes is only recommended if you have an 85% or more sleep efficiency score. I know I don’t have that but I also feel if I continue as I am 12AM to 6AM for another two weeks that I still may not reach that score. So my question was is it ok to increase by 15 min despite not having a sleep efficiency score of 85% or more? Have people done this? How did it work for them or did they not make any changes until the 85% sleep score was achieved?

[Chee2308]

Hello @etty

It is always the obsession over the smallest detail that causes the greatest misery. If your sleep efficiency was 84.999% should you take that extra 15mins or not? Your mind will continue to plague you with these types of “dilemmas”. And once one is resolved, another one crops up and another and another and so on to infinitum. It’s a never ending struggle and if you continue to play these kinds of mental games with your own brain, you will continue to suffer needlessly.

The best sleep is that which have ZERO restrictions. No longer obsessing over quantity, quality, duration, sleep restriction, sleep efficiency or whatever kind of jargon you or the so called sleep experts come up with. Go back to your original self. When you did not have insomnia, were you overly obsessed with these things? It may have been a long time ago, but always try to repeat what you did pre-insomnia. Did you do sleep restriction? Did you keep a sleep diary and take a tally? Did you have a strict sleep bedtime schedule? Did you do all kinds of sleep rituals? Did you take meds? Etc etc etc. In probably ALL these cases, NO. By introducing unnecessary hurdles like these, you only set yourself up for unnecessary disappointments when you fail to achieve any or all of them, which is completely natural because they are too restrictive!

Like I said, forget all the RULES. That’s the end goal of sleep restriction. The real victory is not sleeping well forever, it is in banishing the fear of poor sleep, that’s when people truly sleep really well. It is when you completely flip the problem on itself that you truly get over your insomnia. Good luck.

[Chee2308]

@etty

If you truly understand that sleep is uncontrollable, in fact, you won’t be asking any questions at all, because what is there to ask? Your sleep has a life of its own, independent of what you do, think or ask.

The fact you are asking only mean two things. You are still afraid (of poor sleep), so yes, you will most likely continue to suffer from sporadic bouts of insomnia as long as there’s fear. And yes, you want that 15mins. So go ahead, take the 15mins and be done with it. Forget about any repercussions or consequences, because as you already understood, you CAN’T control sleep. Be brave. Take it and see what happens. If you manage to get more sleep, good. If you don’t, you can always roll it back, no big deal.

[Etty]

Hi Chee2308
I think it is perfectly reasonable question to ask my question when one is following a plan. The plan suggests giving yourself 2 weeks with a 6 hr window after which you can add on 15 minutes to your sleep window.
My question simply was is it ok to do so if I don’t have a sleep efficiency score of 85 or more.

[Etty]

My question actually goes out to anyone who implemented the Sleep Restriction Therapy plan that Martin recommends. From your answers it doesn’t appear that you did.

[Chee2308]

No, there you made a mistake. I signed up for Martin’s course back in 2020. I did the full 8 week sleep restriction thing. I still kept my sleep journals but since thrown them away, cos they don’t really matter when I’ve moved on way beyond. Look under my handle chee2308, it says client. Yours doesn’t so I’m not sure what kind of sleep restriction are you doing or whether it’s supervised by any qualified therapist. But like I said, these are not important in the long run.

Following a plan like sleep restriction to the tee does not and will not guarantee results. I still had bad nights when I was doing it, still did even after I graduated and even now, I still have them very occasionally, although I can’t really remember when was my last. But as I said, I don’t care how I sleep anymore and that’s why I keep sleeping so well! I regularly do 7-9 hours night, I even nap occasionally. So I know what I’m talking about and if you read those testimonials of people who have succeeded in overcoming their insomnia, adoption of a nonchallant and indifferent trait is very often a crucial factor for success. It will be for you too if you want to overcome this. You will need to get out of your comfort zone, reexamine everything, experiment what seems uncomfortable or unnatural to you at first. Only then will you begin to chip away years and decades of die-hard, erroneous sleep beliefs that are not only unhelpful but are extremely destructive behaviors that actually reinforce your insomnia. I wish you the best.

[Chee2308]

I also might want to add that when I was doing srt with martin, it was at the height of the covid pandemic! So it was much worse for me and others in the same plight cos not only we had to contend with our own deeply seated fears, we also had to deal with a massive public health crisis where fear of contagion and deaths were happening everywhere. There was a public curfew in place and hospital visits to see healthcare professionals were severely curtailed. But that didn’t stop me from recovering, did it? Nope. It’s not fair that you are accusing me of pointless rambling. When I’m trying to tell you what you need to know to beat this thing! Cos I’ve been there, and done it all and I know what it’s all about.

[Etty]

If you did Martin’s course then I would’ve expected a bit more understanding and compassion.
If you did Martin’s course then you too would’ve arrived at the stage of moving up in 15 minutes increments. Would you have welcomed someone telling you your question was stupid at that early stage of your recovery?
You talk about rules etc not being important in the longrun, this I am fully aware of. However I am at the beginning stages of trying to fix my lifelong insomnia and I am following the necessary steps, the very steps you had to follow when you did Martin’s course and your advice to me was to ignore the so called sleep experts! Is that what you did after two weeks of sleep restriction therapy.
So no I haven’t found your responses neither kind or helpful.

[Etty]

As for you claiming your journey to overcome your sleep issues was “much worse” than it is for me because you also had to contend with Covid, let me say you know nothing of anyone else’s journey to make such a statement. Please do not respond as your input is neither helpful or welcome.

[Neleh72]

This is a question for chee2308. I tried cbt-i independently for 8 weeks and I followed it diligently (after doing Martin’s free 2 week email course) and found that it seems to have exacerbated my insomnia. I totally agree that doing absolutely nothing is the best course of action, but how do you ever arrive at that point? I feel SO awful after a night of poor sleep that I very much fear not sleeping and this is what drives my insomnia. Because for me, NOT doing anything IS an effort. My insomnia has gotten extremely bad. I’m terrified of being this way the rest of my life. Give me some hope.

[Chee2308]

Hello @neleh72!

Thank you for your question. I do recommend you to go to you-tube and look up this video “Talking Insomnia #39” about an interview between Daniel and Sasha Stephens, a 15 year and now recovered insomniac.

I do not wish to speak at length because I think I have spoken quite enough from my interactions with @etty. But I will repeat that most insomnia has an mental origin and therefore require mental response. My key advice would be:

1. Try to do NOTHING about it except keeping to a regular bedtime schedule. Because there is nothing to fix.
2. Be very patient and expect ups and downs. Give it all the time you need for everything to settle down.

You are your own worst enemy when it comes to your insomnia. You are getting in the way of peaceful sleep, by doing all kinds things for sleep or at the very least, plainly becoming afraid. But that fear is conditioned and you can slowly learn to “unfear” it. I wish you the best.

[Neleh72]

Thank you so much chee2308! I will look that up. I appreciate your response!

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