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For me the sleep window is 6hrs because my average sleep duration is 5.5 hrs. This was measured over the last 5 months when I’ve only had two nil sleep nights. Anymore sleep than say 7 hours means the night after I can expect that sleepiness will not come, so the chance of a nil sleep night is increased.
I think ACT and SRT can and should work together. The only thing I tale issue with on some hardcore SRT folk is the issue of getting out of bed after 15 mins or so if you cannot sleep. It seems far too short to me – and if one uses mindfulness/ ACT one can be at peace in bed just resting, though not actually sleeping. This is what I do when I cannot sleep, only getting up to do something else (I watch TV), if I get fed up with lying there.Hi Amca,
No, not really. Sleep restriction very much is in line with having a controlling personality I think.
SRT really just helps to make you tired the following nights, not necessarily the night to come.The thing is to look at it as TIME IN BED not TIME YOU MUST BE ASLEEP.
I think if you adopt the attitude of I MUST SLEEP DURING THESE TIMES, then that is the wrong attitude and will make you anxious.
The better idea I think is to adopt is this: If you sleep fine, and if you don’t that’s fine too, just try to be as restful as possible instead, keeping in mind that rest is almost as good as sleep anyway and if you don’t sleep much or at all tonight, then you will really raise the chances of sleeping the following night.My view of SRT is not let it interfere too much with your daily life because folks may want to go out for a late evening with pals and /or get up late or early for work/other reasons.
So, the way I did it was to just try to restrict it to about 5 hours time in bed and build from that – so allowing myself lots of leeway on actual get up times, so I could still have a normal life.
These days, after 5 months of being OK, I tend to pay less attention to time in bed. Last night, for example, I got about 7 and a quarter hours sleep – about an hour and half over my average.
So I fully expect to not be too tired tonight, so will probably stay up till about 2am I guess and still get up about 630am . But if I feel tired before then, I will recognise it and go for sleep earlier. (As you get better and use SRT more, you learn to recognise when you are sleepy. As you use ACT more, you learn to let go of the worry and be more accepting. Both are complimentary in my view).Hope this helps.
Have a listen to my interview with Martin in the Success Stories.
I did occasionally take meds. Sometimes, very rarely Zopiclone, but only gave me 3 hours sleep and felt depressed next day.
Mirtazapine (Remeron in the USA) I used more. I had read that best results for sleepiness were from cutting it down. Most people said to 7.5mg or 3.75mg. But I cut it to one eighth of normal amount… so 1/8 of 15 mg = around 1.9 mg. Taken an hour before bed, seemed to relax me. But it is not a knock out pill like the Zs, so never worked when I could not sleep for hours.With the mirt, I was able to cut down by taking every other night, then every third night, then every fourth, then stopped totally.
But I’m convinced that while it helped through a bad patch, the key to me success was in non drug stuff. See the interview for how I did it and past posts on here.
Good luck
DHi Dazzio,
I used to be like that – All or Nothing.
In other words, I’d either get to sleep quickly or be awake all night.However, there were a few occasions when I could get to sleep after 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 hours, so I figured, well if I did it then, I could do it again.
For me, key is as follows.
1 Only go to bed when tired. Have some wind down time but don’t get obsessed about all the stimulus stuff – dark room, ideal temp, no noise and all that nonsense. But do avoid caffeine after 2pm.
2. Try as best you can not to exceed average sleep amounts (the amount that will ensure you are tired by evening). For me, I worked out that amount is between 5.5 and 6 hrs. Yours will be different.
3. Be “in acceptance” and “let go of your desire to control things” if you cant sleep right away. See Jon Kabat Zinn video on Youtube “Seven attitudes of Mindfulness”. Rest can be almost as good as sleep.
4. If you do get fed up with not being asleep, get up and do something else that is relaxing. For me, its watching something light on TV or on audio. (PS Don’t listen to any vid/ audio specifically designed to get you to sleep, because that’s trying too hard – and when video ends and you are still awake, that could make you even more cross.
5. If you fall asleep on couch, and it’s comfortable, then stay there. So what, if its not in bed!
6. Keep in mind if you don’t sleep tonight, you are much more likely to the next night. (sleep drive will be higher)
7. Not sleeping does not have to mean you won’t get anything done next day.
8. It can take a long time. Took me 2 and a half years to fully get over it to a point where the odd and now v rare bad night / nil sleep night could be laughed off.
9. You may not realise it when you have slept. (Sleep misperception)best wishes.
DavidHa! Happy to help.
Remember, when you get sleep, just think, “Well I did it on that night, so I can do it again tonight!”
And yeah, try to stop obsessing. Hard to do, I know, but try anyway. Try to get busy with other things.The podcast interview with me is called…. Success with cbti and act/mindfulness… Would paste it but my pc is playing up.
Hi Carter,
It took a while. From start of nil sleep nights insomnia to the start of my 4 and a half months of no more nil sleep nights took 2 and a half years. But it needn’t be that long.
All is explained in the 50 or so minute podcast in the Success Stories where Martin interviewed me.
Plus I have answered lots of Qs in the ACT for insomnia thread, within the last 2 to 3 weeks.
Hopefully these answer all your questions.
God blessMac,
I think from a post you wrote a few days ago that the obvious solution is to have a TV in the bedroom. I will be doing that too as soon as I get round to it.
People who say don’t do that are the same people who confuse mild insomnia / sleep deprivation with proper insomnia.
If falling asleep while watching TV programmes works for you, then bring TV in the bedroom! Why not!Oh and I don’t really ever drop SRT. But yeah the odd night does come where I get say 7 hrs or more, which is over what I need. If that happens I know I’ll probably not get tired until onto early hours the following night, so I’m kind of ready for that and not surprised when it happens. Hope this helps.
Hi Mac,
I try to only open up to accepting sleep when I feel tired. However, I often open up to accepting sleep when I’m not nodding off tired. Sometimes I’m asleep in a short while, sometimes not. If not I just try to chill and accept it but if it makes me feel a little uptight I may get up and switch the TV on and listen to some chill out TV programme with my eyes closed till I feel sleepy.
Hope that helps.
DafHere is the link to the podcast interview Martin Reed did with me. Worth listening to the whole thing (but I would say that, wouldn’t I!)
May even make you fall asleep!I had my first all nighter (nil sleep) in four months, three weeks ago, but the next day, after a few hours of grumpiness and low mood, I laughed about it, reminded myself that I’d almost certainly sleep well the next night and got on ^ got about 80% of what I’d normally get done, done. Even played football the following evening.
And, I slept like a baby the next night.
No nil sleep nights since then. Sometimes more sleep than others.
Remove the fear that you won’t sleep again naturally or the daft thought that you are unique among mammals in that you have lost the ability to sleep – and you remove the problem.
Hard to believe when you feel stressed out about not feeling asleep, I know. But sleep will come in the end, no matter how anxious you are. Sleep drive will beat the greatest anxiety in the end. Even people with terminal illnesses sleep and soldiers in extreme war zones. So can you!
Thanks for both responses.
Mac, perhaps you are right re your point re sleeping on couch indicating I’m not fully healed. But it works, plus I sleep in bed on holiday or when away from home with no problem.
Martin in the podcast had no issue with it.
By the way, the podcast is in the success stories titled Success with SRT Act /Mindfulness.
I feel fine with just 6 hours sleep actually, andon days when I may get less, I feel fine too. Martin says in podcast with me that 6 is more normal than 8.Even when teenager I only ever got say about 7 hrs max, and of course sleep need declines from age 20 to 60 or so I’ve read.
This thing about 8 hrs is really just not true, peddled by misinformed articles in the papers. Plus sleep need varies massively in people, just as height does.Oh and I often have light sleep. And I wake up between 2 and 4 times in night. Once I have got to sleep once I can nearly always get back to sleep OK.
When my insomnia was most severe I would either sleep OK or not sleep at all. At its worst I had regular months where I’d have 8 or 9 night of nil sleep. But these were never consecutive nights, thank God
Sure Suren,
I used 5 hour sleep window for a month. Today, I try to not sleep more than 6 hours because if I do I’m not usually too tired the next night.
Night before last I was lazy and got around 6 and a half hours so last night I did not feel tired until 330am and only got about 3 hours sleep.
But I’m not bothered as I’m sure ill sleep fine tonight.
I think my average sleep time now is around 6 hours, but I have the odd 3 hours too and sometimes up to 7 hrs.
One day two weeks ago I had a nil sleep night but it was a one off.
I actually will say I find it v hard to be sure about sleep amounts. Often my wife and son tell me I’ve fallen asleep on sofa and have been snoring but I have no awareness of being asleep at all.
Finally one thing I forgot to say before was the support of this excellent site. Really good to read I was not alone and to share success and the hard times too. But do please take on board my point in podcast about the possibility that us insomnia sufferers are maybe a tad over controlling… So let go and accept and kick back.. that was a big factor in my recovery.
