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Hi folks, I think we are all on the same page here. Well, maybe different chapters on any given day, but the same book….
True, eventually your body will just fall asleep. You cannot force yourself to stay awake any more than you can force yourself not to breathe.
Also true, anxiety about whether you will sleep makes it harder to sleep.
And also true, it can be an up and down thing. It’s not like you break a bone, it takes a defined time to heal, then it’s healed, problem over.
When I hit a down period, I sometimes freak out for a while. Eventually, I remember what I have learned and can observe, “I am having the thought that >>>>I am sinking back into insomnia and that I am never going to get over this, etc.” And then I will think damn, how did I forget that part about prefacing my thoughts with “I’m having the thought that…..”
And then I give myself a break and remember that I forgot because I have been so hammered with not sleeping.
The good news is that over time, I seem to recall all of this after a few nights instead of several months.
I hope this helps. It can be a bear, but things can get better, even if it gets kind of choppy sometimes.
Hi Jeff_Nero, it sounds you are really going through the mill right now. Sometimes it seems like insomnia is the gift that keeps on giving, and the last gift you want.
What I mean is that it can perpetuate itself, where it seems like it will never end.
But the key word is “seems”—it is hard to think straight when you are exhausted. And the answer is not to think harder. Rather, it is not to take your thoughts seriously.
Thinking harder makes sense when trying to assemble a piece of furniture, but you can’t think your way to better sleep…..I hope you can slow down, acknowledge that “wow, okay, I’m tired” and acknowledge that all sorts of thoughts are flying through your head (“I’ll never get over this,” etc etc.) without buying into them solely because you feel strongly that way.
Mindfulness is a current fad. Still, the actual practice has been around for centuries, and emphasizes watching the mind rather than getting caught up in the swirl, to the point where you’re only as good as your last thought. A couple of websites; palousemindfulness.com and mindfulness northwest.com There and elsewhere, you will have to sift to find what resonates for you.
And I hope you stick with this site and check out comments, especially from Martin and mentors on the site.
Take care, you are not alone in this.
Hi, Amiemp, sorry to hear you are having a tough time. Sleep anxiety is a struggle, then covid on top of that.
It probably doesn’t feel like progress, but you have learned a key component: there is no medication which will guarantee great sleep over the long term. In fact, there is nothing–meds. or otherwise—which will guarantee great sleep.
Wonderful. So now what?
One step could be stepping back a bit and noticing your thoughts. You are not your thoughts; they really are separate, they are mental constructs generated from neurotransmitters. A lot of them are quite helpful, such as the thought which leads your right foot to step on the brake pedal when the pedestrian walks in front of you.
Other thoughts are not so helpful, and it can help to see them as drifting by through your head.
(More like whizzing by, when you are really stressed out.) Thoughts like: I’m having the thought that since I had covid, I am going to get long covid; or I’m having the thought that the stuff I found on the Internet is automatically true; or I’m having the thought that if I feel strongly that I am helpless, then it means I am helpless.Watching your thoughts go by might sound ridiculous. Especially when you can’t sleep. My point is that we all get all sorts of weird sh__ flying through our heads, and it helps to step back and note that’s what is happening, rather than automatically buy into it. And that it’s hard to think straight when you’re tired.
What I am describing is mindfulness, which is kind of a fad right now so there is some flaky stuff floating around. But beyond that, it has been around for 3,000 years or so. In Western medicine, it is finally starting to gain some traction for people who are struggling but don’t necessarily need long term therapy. Martin can correct me if need be, but I think his course on cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia (CBT-i) is geared this way. Same with his emails and also a lot of the comments you see on this forum from people who are traveling the same road as you.
All this doesn’t mean perpetual serenity and great sleep every night. It does not make everything certain. What long covid really involves–which genetic type is more likely to contract, with which symptoms, to what degree, for how long…. could be this, could be that, etc., much the same as will this or that political leader launch a nuclear weapon. None of which is pleasant to think about. But I think there is value in acknowledging that life is uncertain—rather than spinning endlessly into “what if………”
Take care, you are not alone in this!
Hi Ines, is it possible for you to consult with a doctor or other health care professional? It would be good to rule out any type of heart trouble, for example. If you google Crisis Line or Crisis Connections, or at least in some parts of the USA, dial 211, you can get in touch with someone (it can be a tedious search, requiring patience and energy). A couple of reliable medical websites: WebMD and Mayo Clinic.
If it turns out you have no heart or other problems, this does not mean you are making up your symptoms: if it hurts, it hurts. It just means that the source might be some sort of anxiety or emotional upset. Again, this requires some exploration.
And it might turn out that the anxiety is about sleep itself. Does it seem to occur primarily when you are getting ready to go to sleep?
You are not alone in this type of search. And if it seems more and more confusing, try not to be hard on yourself. Poor sleep can tend to make problems seem bigger and bigger, even insurmountable. They’re not, that’s just the insomnia talking.
I hope you stay with this website, along with exploring where the physical pains might be coming from.
Hi, Steve95, there are a number of do’s and don’s, referred to as sleep hygiene, e.g. don’t drink coffee late in evening, limit computer screen use before bed, generally try to wind down before bedtime. If you still have problems, you could be getting into the area of sleep anxiety, that is obsessing about sleep—how long will it take, will I be rested, how can I deal with this, etc. Thoughts about all this getting out of control, instead of being able to step back and observe thoughts passing through, without putting so much stock in them.
I hope you respond to mentor ScottJ and check out Martin’s emails about all this. Figuring out how to sleep is not as straightforward as navigating from A to B with map, compass and GPS. Accepting this is a big piece.
Take care.
Hi Momup, I can relate to your sensitivity about noise. I can’t claim to be an expert on this, but I do know people who can’t sleep well if it is too quiet! (They grew up in New York City.) For myself, I have noticed that during the day, I can get quite annoyed at e.g. loud neighbors, loud people on the bus, etc. But sometimes the same noise doesn’t bother me. It’s like I just let it happen, it is just part of the background of life. Or the phone ringing at work: sometimes it drove me crazy, the constant interruptions; and other times, it just meant I addressed something now (the caller) rather than calling them later on my own schedule
Fine, but what about when you are trying to sleep? To some extent, I think the attitude shift I am describing applies during sleep time as well. But it’s also true most of us cannot sleep well with lots of noise….I just googled “white noise sleep aids” and stuff pops up. I have used some devices and found them useful.
.As far as noise “stressing my subconscious,” again, I think it is more attitude than anything: in other words, the key is not the noise, but how you react to it.
Finally, insomnia can really scramble your head. For example, turns out I didn’t sleep all that great last night. And I wake up thinking about how I got cut from the high school baseball team 50 years ago. And I actually started rolling into this idea of what a failure I am. What’s with that? Answer: it’s just the insomnia talking. And insomnia can lead anywhere, including getting on the Internet and believing anything.
I hope you stick with this forum. There are people here who have really been through it. And Martin’s course and emails address the underlying theme of our attitude about sleep, aka sleep anxiety.
Take care, you are not alone.
Hi ahryan2011, I can relate to insomnia feeling like a lonely battle. Actually on any given day, there are millions of people who slept poorly the previous night, even for a lot of nights. I have found that when I sleep poorly, my thoughts can really go haywire–along the lines of ‘nobody can relate to what I’m going through, etc.’
So it might be helpful to check out Martin’s course so you can get some structure into what to do next. And this also addresses sleep anxiety, as you put it, developing “quite a fear of not sleeping.” This is a fear that doesn’t need a specific cause. Maybe yours originated in the anxiety disorder you describe. No matter. Once it shows up, it can take on a life of its own.
I know the VA has really gotten into mindfulness meditation for chronic pain and PTSD. And it can deal with insomnia, too. I think your therapist can steer you toward some resources. Everyone who tries it will find this or that source resonates more than others. Example of one free site I have found useful: palousemindfulness.com
I know mindfulness has become something of a fad, but it has been around for centuries. No serious practitioner will claim it is a cure-all for anything. (Would that life were that easy…) But it does provide some tools for not buying into every thought that just pops into your head: watching your thoughts pass by instead of moving in with them.
Take care, you are not alone.
Hi Cathy, suggest you touch base with Martin on your CBTi regimen.
And sleep anxiety is always a big part of it. And it’s true there are ups and downs.
Most of the time, when I wake up early and don’t get back to sleep right away, I realize that my thoughts are going haywire. Example: last night, I woke up around 2:30 am., couldn’t get back to sleep. After a few minutes of worrying about it, I realized my thoughts were making things harder. Who knows why, but the memory of getting a lousy evaluation at work 30 years ago popped into my head. And the conclusion that “I am a failure.”
This time, I was fortunate to remember that this is just a feeling: “I’m having the feeling that I’m a failure.” This is much different than: “I am a failure.”
I was about to just get up anyway. Laying there worrying doesn’t do me any good. This time, I actually fell back asleep, but sometimes I don’t.
Who knows what pops into any of our heads. It could be that your thoughts will center on how you are doing with CBTi, are you timing things right. And your option would be along the lines of:
1. I am not doing my sleep therapy right and it isn’t going to work and I am doomed to lousy sleep. as opposed to:
2. I’m having the thought that I am not doing my sleep therapy right. I’m having the thought that this isn’t going to work, and that I am doomed to lousy sleep.
If this seems like a distinction without any real difference, allow for the fact that it is really hard to think clearly enough to see distinctions when you are tired. When I am having a tough day(s) after bad sleep, I try to give myself a break along the lines of, “Wow, I am really hammered right now. And I feel like I could get irritable over just about anything, and my brain feels kind of scrambled. And then I just try to do the best I can. What else you gonna do, right?
Take care, it doesn’t last forever, and you are not even close to alone on this. Everybody else might look like they are totally together, but they’re not.
Hi Dan, I think Jim has covered this well. I think mindfulness meditation helped the most—not necessarily to sleep better, though I think that was a fringe benefit sometimes—but mostly on how to cope. Knowing that you just have to get through this moment. Yes, there will be tough moments in the future, but not every moment, and you learn to deal with them when they occur in the present moment only.
I also learned not to live in my thoughts or take them too seriously. Especially when you are exhausted and you’re not thinking straight. E.g., I learned there is a profound difference between:
1. “I can’t deal with this, if this keeps up, who knows, maybe I will just kill myself;”
and
2. “I’m having the thought that I can’t deal with this; I’m having the thought that if this keeps up, who knows, maybe I will just kill myself.”
Thoughts just pop up into your head, and they can get more convoluted when you’re really hammered from insomnia. Regardless how strong they seem, you don’t have to buy into them.
One caveat is that if you find you are in a black hole for days at a time, all the time, it is good to consult with a mental health professional to determine whether it’s just an understandable bummed out feeling or actual clinical depression, aka major depression. There is no shame in taking an antidepressant; insomnia is an understandable example of situational depression. The antidepressant might provide some short-term relief from insomnia, but it will help clinical depression over the long term.
And Martin addresses sleep anxiety, really a key component in all this.
Hi Misa, I am sorry to hear you are going through a tough time right now.
It really can turn into a nasty cycle–wanting to sleep so badly, trying this or that, when it actually comes down to not trying. But what the hell does that mean, right?
I encourage you to stick with Martin’s website–to know you are not alone, and that this doesn’t have to last forever. It won’t. But it’s hard when you’re in the middle of it. And there is no medication which will guarantee good, consistent sleep, though sometimes they can help short term.
Over the long term, this course and the whole mindfulness idea of learning how to watch your thoughts rather than getting caught up in them is the key. Yeah, but how? One analogy might be your thoughts are like branches floating by on a river, maybe even roaring by. That is different than getting swept away by thoughts, being in the river yourself.
And on those days when you haven’t got much if any sleep the night before, can you ease up on yourself, maybe just note that “I’m having the thought that I am tired and anxious about sleeping tonight” as opposed to “I am tired and anxious about sleeping tonight–and I probably won’t sleep well, and this will never end, etc.” There really is a difference in these two thoughts, though I know it can be hard to see that when you are really hammered from insomnia. Hard to see, but true nonetheless.
Take care, you are not alone.
Hi Dan10780, wow, it sounds like you are really going through the mill right now. No paragraphs, just a long stream of stuff racing through your head nonstop.
It sounds like you intellectually understand what is happening: as you say, you find yourself “letting this consume me,” and you know that you are overthinking this. Great, but how to stop, right?
You talk about how you’ve lost a sense of structure, like lots of people have during Covid. Checking out Martin’s sleep plan could help bring more order, less craziness to the whole process. And this also involves realizing how much our thoughts can carry us into a sense that this will never end, it’s just a rabbithole of not sleeping and nothing works and how am I going to get my work done, etc.
Slowing down sounds trite, simplistic, and how are you supposed to slow down? I dealt with insomnia for decades (doesn’t mean you will at all, I had lifelong trauma to address)–my only point here is that no, insomnia does not have to last forever and yes, it is possible to slow down and watch your thoughts roar through your mind like a raging river without having to fall in the river and carried downstream for who knows how long and who knows where. A couple of sites you might want to check out: palousemindfulness.com and mindful northwest.com
Thinking is great for solving specific problems like wiring an electrical device. Step-by-step is the way to go. Again, as I think you know intellectually, it does not work for things beyond our control, like “how” do I sleep.
This can take a while, and even now I have nights of ragged sleep. But over time, I find that I don’t freak out about it, at least not as much as I used to.
Take care, you are not alone in this.
Hi Dutch, I am not a doctor or a pharmacist. However, I did take several types of sleep meds over many years. I found it is possible to find this one or that which can help you get over a really tough stretch of insomnia, for a while. And then you build up a tolerance, and sometimes they can flip and contribute to insomnia. Some drugs do require a tapering in and off to avoid withdrawal side effects. I remember taking clonazapam sp, but can’t recall where it is on the spectrum. Pharmacists are the best bet for solid information.
I also would get desperate and keep shopping for more meds, sometimes for weeks with nothing working. And thinking about it, and getting more desperate.
I did take antidepressants, some of which can help sleep temporarily. Their best benefit in the long term is to help stave off the darkness which understandably can show up when we cannot sleep and feel overwhelmed by life’s demands. But a drug which will guarantee good sleep for the duration? If it existed, you would see people lined up for blocks.
So what’s the answer? I am glad to hear you are doing CBTi, hopefully with the likes of Martin. Ultimately it comes down to how we think about the mess we’re in. And this is hard to remember and believe when you are so hammered you can’t think straight. True anyway.
Perhaps it would help if you can preface your thoughts with “I’m having the thought that….” as in:
1. ” I’m having the thought that my life is ruined because I’m so tired;”
as opposed to
2. “My life is ruined because I’m so tired….my life is ruined.”
It may not seem right now that there’s any difference between 1 and 2. But there is, and I think you will find in your clearer moments that it’s a really big difference.
Take care, Dutch. You are not alone in this.
Hi Sleepless guy, I can relate to that—how are you supposed to work when you are hammered from insomnia? I had to let go of part of my law practice, the part that required the most emotional stamina (arguing spouses) and instead did more work which I could do without too many deadlines (less controversial, writing reports).
I don’t know what type of work you were doing. Let’s say it is working for an auto parts store. It might be less demanding to work with inventory in the back, rather than dealing with customers at the counter.
Of course you want to sleep better, and I hope you can stick with this forum. I think you will find a steady stream of comments about how our thoughts can really get us off track. Example:
1. I can’t sleep, which means I can’t work, which means I am going to go broke and be homeless and who knows what will happen living on the streets!
as opposed to:
2. I’m having these terrible thoughts going through my head. I am watching them zip through–thoughts that I will never be able to sleep, that I can’t get any job, that I am going to end up on the street….and that no one cares, etc.
If you have trouble seeing the difference between 1 and 2, it is not that there’s no difference. It’s that your mind is scattered because you are so tired, which is totally understandable. Really hard to think straight, and here I think it comes down to just acknowledging, “OK, the truth is out there, it’s just hard to focus right now,” and give yourself a break for doing the best you can.
I would think all this stuff I have written is so much BS, except for the fact that i lived it for years.
It does get better, even though that can be hard to see. Still true.
Hi SleepyS, sorry to hear you are having such a tough time with “worry-thoughts,” another good description of the sleep anxiety all of us on this forum have fallen into. At least most of us, including me.
If you haven’t checked out Martin’s emails and posts on sleep anxiety, please do so. If you have, I am guessing that thoughts are intruding and telling you it is no use, you are stuck for good. Scary thoughts, to be sure. But just thoughts.
When I first heard that phrase “just thoughts,” it struck me as dismissive and simplistic. But I learned through mindfulness and this forum that we are not our thoughts, and our thoughts do not own us.
Example: I did not sleep well night before last. Last night, I had the thought that ‘oh my God, this could be the start of going back to where I used to be–exhausted so many days, no way out,’ etc. The key is I had the thought, and that’s it. Big difference between “I’m having the thought that I am doomed,” and “I am doomed.” Instead of living the thought as if there is nothing else, I can watch if drift by, like a branch floating by on the river.
There is no easy, permanent fix, problems over for good. But I think you will find things get better. Take care.
Hi SleeplessSarah, it sounds like you are going through the mill right now…..if you peruse the forum, you will read about sleep anxiety, which does seem to be the primary driver of insomnia. If we worry about sleep, small wonder we cannot. Yeah, yeah, but what to do when you are stuck? I found that when I would start sinking into despair, I would realize that it was the insomnia talking. Sometimes I would go for weeks while I would forget this.
I also realized I was giving power to insomnia, like you with your moniker SleeplessSarah sort of making insomnia my identity, when actually we all are so much more than that.
Not to say there could not be other causes for insomnia. Waking up repeatedly after only an hour or so, it sounds like when I had untreated sleep apnea. A sleep study and a CPAP took care of the sleep apnea, one of the components of insomnia for a lot of people. Maybe this is going on for you?
I hope you stick with the forum and check out Martin’s videos and emails. We really are all in this together.
