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Hi @chee2308,
Yeah, like I said I know your heart is in the right place, even if your methods definitely sound like tough love. 🙂
Thank you for the wise words. Yes, ultimately we have to live with the hand we are dealt. After all, what else can we do. You have to live.
Thanks again, and sweet dreams to all!
Wow, Bronte, that was really beautifully written.
I hope Teresa responds, it would be nice, I don’t know why so many thoughtful replies here are often left, as kids say these days, ghosted.
I will refer to only the part you wrote to me. Yes, I do have a lot of health problems, you are right. In addition to this chronic insomnia, I also suffer from multiple sclerosis and epilepsy.
I asked my neurologist if maybe my sleep problems might be connected with my MS, he said probably not. There are lots of people with MS who sleep great, and lota of people without MS who don’t.
I asked my psychiatrist the same question and she said probably yes, and gave me a diagnosis of organic insomnia and a prescription for Trazodone (a little more than a sugar pill for me, sadly).
Who is right, who is wrong, I will never know, but it ultimately doesn’t matter. I just wish I was well…
I remember one period of my life when I basically applied the ACT approach (before I even heard of ACT), and it worked great for a few years. But when insomnia returned in a different form, nothing worked anymore. I won’t hijack Teresa’s post, I just want to say that in some cases yes, a change in the way you think can lead to tangible improvements. But that was when I feared insomnia, obsessed about it all day long, dreaded the night, dreaded the bed, classic fear-fueled anxiety insomnia. As I got older and learned to relax, I developed this misterious mid-ldle of the night night/early morning awakening insomnia, and everything fell through.
I believe that the core of ACT, and CBT, is letting go of the fear. But I’m not afraid. I still live my life, I still work, I still socialize. And I still wake up too early every single night. Is it the MS or hidden anxiety, like I said, I will never know. I just know that it’s there for me to live with. And I know that with other conditions, like the ones Teresa has, sleep often takes a hit. You say you have the same conditions and CBT still helped, that is great. And after all that time, too. That gives hope to all of us, thank you. I still doubt that one approach can work for every single patient in such a complex issue such as insomnia, but your example shows we should never give up hope.
Oh, no, I agree completely, this is exactly the kind of battle I fight from time on Reddit when people say they literally haven’t slept for weeks or months.
I didn’t get the impression from Teresa that she is one of those people. I could be wrong, though.
What I meant with the gruesome finger breaking analogy wasn’t that people were literally not sleeping for such a long time, but sleeping POORLY for a long time.
Quality of life is definitely impacted, and when your eyes are burning, your brain feels squashed, you are nauseous, but you still have to push through, work, and function, it’s very very hard to just ignore it. And life is about QUALITY, not QUANTITY, isn’t it?
I appreciate all the work you do here, Chee, I really do. But I can’t help shake the notion that your attitudes are sometimes reminiscent of the way they used to tell clinically depressed people that they are fine, exhaggerating, that they just need to go out more and whatnot.
You can’t just will insomnia away. As wonderful as that would be. I mean, some people can, people who have only has a slight brush with it, and they think it works for everybody, but for most it isn’t a “just be happy” kind of thing.
If I could nap, I would be the happiest person alive. Nap away, just not too close to night.
Because, Chee, sleep deprivation is torture. Figuratively speaking, imagine someone breaking your fingers and you trying not to think about your fingers. It’s tough.
They eoke you up on purpose, hooked up that machine, you couldn’t fall back asleep and they declared you have sleep apnea? Some clinic.
I heard someone refere to CPAP as “that dreaded Darth Vader mask” and I couldn’t agree more. I don’t think I could sleep with that thing on, either.
The thing is, with me at least, the more effort I put into falling asleep, like actual effort like a sleep mask or that machine, the less sleep I get because there’s more focus and more pressure to sleep. It’s a nasty circle, and a very delicate balance that can be thrown off easily.
My insomnia is also connected to a stressful event, as they often are. I was selected to do a presentation on college in front of the whole auditorium and couldn’t sleep for two days and two nights. Needless to say, it didn’t go well. That was when I sort of became aware of insomnia and when it kicked into a stronger, worse second gear, but looking in retrospect I relised I had it for a long time before that event. I never slept like the other kids.
I think our minds are just wired that way, I am a bit of a worrier and I’ve been a nail biter since the seventh grade, I get stressed easily and it all cumlinated in my sleep. I think you and I are alike in that way.
I think insomnia can start when you simply become aware it is a thing. When you realize it, it’s impossible to erase that realization from your memory, unfortunately.
Cortisol I will measure for sure. My psych said on the last visit that it is one of the things we have to look into next. I imagine it will show to be high. A sleep study, though, I don’t think so. I could never fall asleep in that lab, kudos to you for making it, even if it was for a short time only.
I like your spirit, you didn’t give up, you think positive and I believe Martin’s course WILL help you. Keep us posted!
My situation is specific. Yes, I do have another condition – multiple sclerosis. I asked my neurologists if my insomnia could be related to that, they said no, insomnia is a common complaint in the general population. I asked my psychiatrist the same question and she said yes, and gave me a diagnosis of organic insomnia. So, in the end I’m none the wiser. In my heart of hearts, though, I don’t think it MS related.
My wake ups are the same. You described it so well. No slow waking up from a dream, more like flipping a switch.
My psychiatrist suggested a cortisol check, but we didn’t yet get around to that. You say yours is high, is there any way you could lower it? Sorry for being such a tool about cortisol, I never got around to exploring it in more detail, though it is mentioned on the forums from time to time.
As for a sleep study, no, I don’t think I could do it. Fall asleep in a lab with someone monitoring me, hardly. Have you had it? What were the results? I know there is an in home version of the test, but honestly after some 20 years of quiet suffering I have only relatively recently started to see a psychiatrist, perhaps we will get around to a sleep study soon. But other than ruling out apnea, I don’t know what else good it can do.
It’s good to hear you don’t suffer from exhaustion during the day that much. Have you ever wondered why? I’ve always assumed that not sleeping enough wreaks everyone as it is a basic human need, yet people do say they can get a lot done on very little sleep. I meam, I can, too, but I am NOT enjoying it. 🙂
It’s tough.
I also believe anxiety is at the root of most insomnias, maybe even all of them, but that knowledge does not help me when my UNCONSCIOUS mind wakes me up at 1, or 2, or 3… Isn’t it maddening?
I hope you are enjoying your retirement despite all this. You say you have had insomnia for 19 years, why 19? Can you remember a specific time around which it started or? Mine seems to always have been there in one way or the other, except maybe in early childhood. But when and why exactly I acquired it, who knows. In any case, the why doesn’t matter, only how to make it better matters.
Hi, atw,
I hope you are doing well and that the course is helping.
I haven’t tried it myself, and don’t know if actively doing anything would help or hinder my sleep.My insomnia is also of the maintenance variety. It didn’t use to be. For the most part of my 25-ish insomnia career I had onset insomnia, what Chee says fear of sleep and of not sleeping, but I overcame that and actually slept all right for a few years. But when insomnia came back with another method – waking me up too early, which has been going on for 8 years now, I just haven’t found a way to help myself. It’s like that sleepy feeling from the beginning if the night is gone, and now you’re wide awake.
Have you tried any therapy? I’ve tried low dose Valium, high dose Trazodone and a couple of times Ambien, but nothing really helped in the long run. I don’t think there is a pill that helps chronic insomnia, though I can’t say I’ve tried them all.How do you manage through the day? I am generally all right till about 11 a.m., then I’m exhausted the rest of the day, which kinda sucks, but what can you do.
It’s really a tough hand to be dealt. I have managed to keep a career, to have a family life, but I wish I could enjoy it all more.
So how are you handling it all? Any tips and tricks after all those years?
I know you’re not here anymore, but what the hell:
I wish this forum had a solid base like the old Sandman’s Insomnia Forum used to have a long time ago. Now Reddit and other social networks have taken over and they are full of all kinds of people, kids, and bots, rarely a genuine chronic insomnia sufferer. And even if one genuine case comes by, things just move at a such hectic pace you don’t get to discuss anything properly, it’s already yesterday’s news. So, you have superbusy sites like Reddit on one hand, and sites like Martin’s where a post gets maaaaybe one reply, if it gets any at all, and what’s worse posters don’t tend to reply bavk or say thanks for some reason. And I would have liked to share a few back and forths with you, I am a lifelong insomnia sufferer myself. Maybe you pop in despite no activity, and we’ll talk.
Edgar
I doubt there is a way, people are the way they are, we can’t change people.
I believe you’re right, people look for quick fixes, but not only that, I believe (and hope for them) that they only had one brush with insomnia, got scared, posted, maybe vented a little, then slept OK and didn’t feel the need to come back. Who knows.Definitely. To me it’s basic culture to respond to people who try to help you, or just simply to respond to a message directed at you. If nothing else, to just say thanks.
Maybe people are so used to “like” buttons that, if there aren’t any, they don’t even think of WRITING “thanks” as a possible alternative.
Ah well, what can you do.
Thank you for you reply, Martin, and for all the hard work you’ve done for insomniacs over the years.
If you haven’t heard of anybody literally sleeping for that little, then it most probably is very, very rare, or even, like I believe, even impossible. You said it – a few bad nights in a row, sure, but a lifetime of 1-2 hours per day, with no naps, I really think that is literally impossible. Still, when you read one such anegdotal experience after another, you sometimes get scared despite your best judgement, and despite knowing full well of the sleep mispercetion phenomenon. I will keep in mind that it most probably will never happen to me, because it most likely does not literally happen to anyone, or they would be institutionalised and certainly unable to work, type, etc.
My sleep isn’t perfect, 5 hours a day roughly, even 6 often, and it has been like this for decades (stable I mean) and YET I let myself get scared sometimes. Silly.
And you’re exactly right, it is during a string of worse-than-usual nights that I sometimes start to gice those stories some credibility whereas when I’m feeling OK I just ignore them. So yes, the only thing we can control are our actions and the reaction we choose to have to external things that are out of our control.
Thank you.
Thank you for your kind response and comforting words, and I’m sprry you’re going through all this as well.
What a wonderful expression, it is indeed a hamster wheel we got ourselves into.
I’ve read book, tried therapy, tried without therapy, the difference is always negligable.
So yes, I agree that the best approach, the only one in fact, is to cope as best we can.The possibility of sleeping even less scares me. I really believe people who say those things are exhagerrating at least a bit. I sure hope so.
But, the fear is always there. It’s a thing that, once learned, can not be unlearned. We can only hope to be manage it a little better, and that is what we can strive for. And yes, enjoy the little things when we can.
Thanks again.
