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Thank you both for weighing in (and Martin, too)
It is clear you have a lot of personal experience with insomnia and that you have a lot of knowledge on the subject.
@ Kobalap – it is the napping issue that often has me convinced that my insomnia is worse than other people’s, though of course you’re right, I know I’m not the worst one.
It’s just that people, my colleagues mostly, often tell me how they, too, have terrible insomnia. What they actually mean is that they can’t sleep properly at night, so they are busted during their workday and can’t wait to get back home and crash for a few hours. Don’t get me wrong, what they describe is a real problem,too, I am not underestimating anyone’s sleep problems, but I think that what they have is more of a sleep schedule issue than it is real insomnia. Most if not all of my colleagues would benefit a lot from sleep restriction, if they wanted to try it, but their problems aren’t severe enough, I guess, since nobody’s even heard of SR.
My brother, for instance, often has this kind of sleep problem where his nights are terrible, because his worktime is all over the place. But even he can’t understand how I can’t sleep even if my day is free,on weekends and holidays. For me, every night is a struggle, no matter the situation.I’m grateful to Martin for ensuring me that this isn’t as unheard of as I sometimes feel it is.
Anyway, I’m repeating myself, sorry. When you say proper treatment, are you talking about medication, natural methods or a combination of both?
As for dangerous things you mentioned, I once (but only once) was so desperate that I took 7-8 pills of Valium in one night (no alcohol, though). I could have overdosed, probably. But that was years ago, and I’ve never done anything that stupid again, though these combinations of small doses of Valium and alcohol are not far behind.
@ Jodi
You are absolutely right about me training my brain. I have to admit, it was just too irresistible to just pop a pill and add a sip of vine and in that way pretty much guarantee I will go back to sleep. Placebo or not, it worked for a while and I developed a habit of not even trying to go back to sleep naturally. As soon as I would wake up, I would immediately get out of bed, combine the two, go back to bed and just fall asleep. Like I said, I am almost glad that this method stopped working, because I would never stop myself.However, I have to point out that this whole Valium thing only started as a result of my early morning awakenings, not the other way around. First I started to wake up too early (as opposed to having exclusively sleep onset problems in the past), I don’t know why, and then I fought with the issue for about half a year before I finally caved in and started experimenting with Valium. Who knows what would have happened if I had never started. Maybe the early awakenings would stop naturally, maybe they wouldn’t.
I’ve read somewhere that early morning awakening type of insomnia is the most challenging to treat, probably for that exact reason, sleep drive is depleted, arousal kicks in.
I’m sorry you are in the position you describe. I feel it is very similar to mine. Being knocked-out is exactly what I AM doing. Not at the beginning of the night (that I would call PASSING OUT), but certainly at the middle of it. I don’t see a way out of it, other than trying to change my focus on sleep as Martin describes, but it is so much easier to do at the beginning of the night with a lot of sleep drive than it is later.
And just to add: I have been suffering from various kinds if insomnia my while life. Before it started waking me uo in the middle of the night, I found that ignoring it is the best approach. “Live like you don’t have it” was my motto. And most nights I slept fine.
When I started waking up in the middle if the night, my motto wasn’t applicable anymore. No matter how much I tried to ignore it, and successfully falling asleep every night, that awakening a few hours later really unrattled me. And I am exhausted every day.
However, I now know that nothing has changed at the core of the problem. I still have to strive to life my life with as much sleep as I get. Actively fighting it, like I’ve been doing, just causes the opposite effect. And who knows, maybe in time I will get back to the way things were.
Thank you so much, Martin, you are such a great guy.
And so many things you said are spot on!
My problem with sleep doesn’t lie in other life worries. My problem with sleep is sleep itself (the arousal system, as you said).
It’s a catch 22 situation, and so hard to get out of. Poor sleep increases arousal, arousal causes poor sleep.
Thank you so much for saying that trouble napping isn’t that unusual. I sometimes feel like I am the only one. Only one user here, gsdmom, said she has the same problem.
And yes, I am SURE that I have conditioned myself into believing those damned pills are helping, when in fact it is my own body that gives me sleep, the pills for sure lost their effectiveness long ago.
Martin, last night was horrible. I woke up after only 2.5 hours of sleep and didn’t manage to get back to sleep, and I must admit I overused Valium (three pills + vine), but I was still too angsty to fall back under, which PROVES that the mind is stronger than the pills.
In a way I’m glad Valium+alcohol stopped working, otherwise I don’t know if I would ever willingly stop.
Unfortunately, however, this night was my tipping point, and after years and years of sleep problems and selfmedicating, I got angry, fed up, I got out of my apartment and went to my doctor, who prescribed Ambien. I just did it so that I can say I’ve tried both antianxiety and sleeping pills.
I’ve never used sleeping pills, though, and I am terrified.The deal with the doctor is a two-week trial. I didn’t tell her I am a lifelong insomniac. I just said I have been having trouble sleeping for the past 5-6 months. I am afraid of getting a diagnosis and losing my driver’s licence, which I need for my work.
So I have decided that I will try Ambien for those two weeks just to see what happens, so I can say that I tried it all before quitting it all. I do not think Ambien will work and yes, I don’t see it as a long term solution.
After this, I am going to try to go back to my natural sleep, however much I get,I will do my best to live with it. There really is no other way than natural in sleep.
After the two-week Ambien trial, whether it improves my sleep or not, I am quitting all pills and going back to the way things were. If I fail to get my sleep naturally back on track to at least manageable 5.5 hours, I will look for a private psychiatrist to work with me, but also only through CBT-I, no pills.
I KNOW that I am the reason for my poor sleep, and I KNOW that the cure has to come from inside me.
Hi. Sorry for not answering, hope you’re still here. I just lose hope in these forums, I feel most people here are in the lightweight sleep problems category, where I was some 10 years ago. I feel I am too far gone to be helped by a forum, but I still write since nobody in real life has ever had any sort of sleep problem, so people here can at least somewhat understand.
My sleep schedule is I go to bed around 23, fall asleep immediately, then wake up a few hours later, wide awake. I immediately take a little Valium and a few sips of whatever alcohol I have in the house, otherwise I don’t fall back to sleep.
Most nigths I have to do this once a night to get some 6-6.5 hours of sleep. Some nights I have to do it twice a night.
My final wake up time is around 6, 6:30.I don’t sleep in between (during the day).
My main concern is the fact that this thing is progressing, in a bad way. From no sleeping pills to 2.5 mg Valium, onto 5 mg Valium, now to 2.5 mg Valium + alcohol, once or twice per night. When will it end?
@ Chee – absolutely agree. Sleep is a time when the whole body recovers, gets rid of toxins and all that. It’s only logical to assume that a normal sleeper’s body and brain can handle more abuse than an insomniac’s body and brain.
@ Angel – living like you don’t have insomnia, i.e. ignoring it as much as you can, is the best thing you can do. This approach helped me with my first bout of insomnia a long time ago and the insomnia didn’t return for a long time after that. Glad to hear your sleep is improving.
I think it’s a matter of semantics. In theory no, but it’s hard to measure.
Insomnia makes you more susceptible to heart attacks, strokes, epilepsy, depression and accidents. When one of those things happens (not saying it has to), the official COD will of course never state “insomnia”.
That’s why it’s especially important for us poor sleeoers to keep our other things in life in check (no smoking, no drinking,eating healthy…).
My grandfather was a terrible sleeper all his life, but otherwise lead a healthy life, and lived to be 84.Thank you both for your responses, and especially Martin for even running this site. As far as I know, the only one of its kind, I hope you last.
As for this post, I have recovered since, the very next night was all right (about 6 hours). I’m sorry for whining, I just hate nights when I miss sleep completely, like I explained. I feel like I could die on those days and the fact that I can’t crash for an hour or two during the day really gets me down, not to mention makes me feel like I’m crazy. I doubt I will ever know why I can’t nap, is it a conditioned habit I developed sometime in my life, is it genetic, or something third. Doesn’t really matter in the long run, I guess.
The sleepless night that I described in the post happened the night before going on a romantic weekend with my wife, which bummed me out even more, but like I said the second day was all right.Now I’m back to my usual early morning awakening insomnia. It’s harder for CBT to help in this scenario, that’s a different kettle of fish.
V is more of a crutch than anything else, the dose is so small it doesn’t really make a difference.
Anyway, thanks, I didn’t really expect a response (so many people with sleep problems posting, it’s a pandemic alongside the Covid one, except nobody talks about this one.)That is a common complaint,but be persistent.
And I find it impossible to FALL asleep during the day, hard as I try and even if I missed the entire night before.
Funny how we all fight different things.
Hi,
I’ll put something out there just so as to not leave you hanging, though I’m not sure what to say.
I’ve suffered from insomnia all my life. I’ve been through different variations of it, including a period of intense fear/dread of going to bed, or of the approaching night. That dread is not uncommon to anybody who ever had serious trouble sleeping.
Also, my insomnia started with a simple stupid thought just like yours, except my thought was “What if I don’t fall asleep tonight”. And voila, I didn’t.And still can’t, only difference is now I’m struggling in different ways.
Anyway, back to your post – from what I understand, you don’t fear not being able to fall asleep, you fear not waking up once you do. I must confess I never heard of something like that, but you can’t be the only one, so somebody somewhere has gotten over it.
I’m guessing that this phobia means you are having trouble falling asleep (onset insomnia)?
Given that you must eventually fall sleep, what happens then? Can you maintain your sleep for as long as you need?
Did the clueless psych at least give you any suggestions on how to relax or some low-dose anti-anxiety drug for occasional relief?For what it’s worth, my fear of sleep is long gone. I struggle with sleep maintenance now, which is a different thing altogether, but irrelevant for you case. The fear just sort of went away when I got tired of fighting it. But like I said, my reason for fear was different, so I don’t know.
I often go to work on 3,4,5 hours of sleeo, from time to time even on 0 hrs of sleep.
I pretend everything is fine though I don’t think I’m fooling anyone.
Still, it’s manageable, but it depends on the kind of work you do. What is the nature of the job you are about to start?
Hi.
I think the best cure for insomnia is distraction, and work is a good tool for that. Also, it makes you tired which is a good thing.
Stress is a problem if you are the anxious type who can’t sleep due to obligations, worries etc. But very often the problem with sleeplessness is that the mind has “tasted” insomnia somewhere in the past and remembered it for good. When you’re left with fewer distractions, not many things to take the mind off of insomnia onto something else, the mind is free to focus on insomnia all it wants.I often sleep better during work than I do during vacation. So I’m not surprised by what you have experienced, and I’m sure you are not alone in this.
Hello again, living_tribunal.
I wouldn’t say that I detest sleep, quite the opposite , I love sleep, I just wish I could get more of it. I hate the constant lack of sleep and especially nights with no sleep, which are, thank God, rare.
You’re right about our brains unable to turn off. In my case it’s not because I think about some external problem or obligation in my life, but because my mind is always at least a little bit too focused on whether it will fall asleep or not.
At least that was the case when my insomnia was mostly of the sleep-onset type. Now that my problem is sleep maintenance, I don’t really know what to think anymore.“what I plan to do going forward is if I have a bad night on my normal dose, I need to stick it out. I need to never take more to ensure there are no hiccups.”
– Good plan, I hope it works. I’m in a similar situation and I manage to hold on till the next dose (though every time just barely). I sometimes take more than I should, but other times I don’t take any, so it evens out at the end of the month. They say we will all have to increase dosages in time due to resistance, but there are cases of people staying on the same dose for a very long time, why not hope we are one of those cases.I don’t like being without pills, THAT makes me anxious. 🙂
Good luck!
” After I realized it was possible not to sleep, I didn’t.”
When I discussed the possible causes of insomnia on another forum some 10 years ago, I used pretty much the same words. I said that in my case insomnia is not the result of anxiety, depression or anything like that, but the simple REALIZATION I made as a kid that we can interrupt and ruin our sleep with nothing more than our own minds. I still maintain that if a hundred people, healthy people, were asked to give the phenomenon of sleep some serious thought, 50 of them would come back as insomniacs.
It is dangerous to think about sleep too much, and I admire sleep professionals who do this for a living and retain their good sleep.
I first realized that I don’t sleep like other people when I traveled as a kid with my family to vacations in buses, trains, cars and saw that no matter how much I try, I can’t fall asleep and had to stay awake the whole trip. Later I found out that I struggle to nap during the day while everyone else seemed to nap whenever they could, for instance after school, and enjoyed their naps a lot (who wouldn’t)! This insomnia never really went away, just changed from sleep onset to sleep maintenance after I stopped fearing sleep so much. Now I fall asleep relatively easily, but have trouble staying sleep. I too sleep 4-5 hours a night,with no naps during the day. But with the help of pills I sometimes manage to pull 6-6.5 hours.
I don’t have any real advice, only that I think you should stick to what works for you. If it’s pills, it’s pills. Anything is better than no sleep. As corny and dramatic as it sounds, no sleep really is no life. What made you tired of taking pills? What did your psychologist say about that and why do you feel they’re not taking you seriously? If so, can you change to another?Hi,
Just when I wanted to compliment you on your rationality and critical thinking, you go to some spiritual universe and whatnot. 🙂
Regardless, your question is on point. I’m also tired of hearing that lack of sleep has “no health consenquences”, as opposed to “no measurable health consequences”. Of course it does.
For one, lack of sleep (chronic) can lead to an increased risk of a heart attack, that much has been established. Also, it is one of the main triggers for epilepsy. So there are at least two conditions directly related to lack of sleep. Who knows how many others there are. I’m sure a stroke is somewhere among them as well.It’s all a question of semantics, really. Once an insomniac gets, for instance, a heart attack, nowhere will it say on the chart that it was caused by “poor sleep”. Something more direct like a blockage will be listed as a cause, even though that blockage is the result of years of sleep deprivation.
Sleep deprivation hurts (I won’t say kills) veery slowly, so it goes under the radar.
Oh and that person claiming to sleep for only 1-3 hours? Doubt…
The silver lining is that you can curb some of the effects of poor sleep by being smart – eating right to keep your heart healthy for one.
Jesus, this is almost exactly like something I would write. My sleep window isn’t quite so limited like yours to one and a half hours, but the rest of my situation is identical to yours. I can only fall asleep at night,and only if I go to bed at proper time. Only I can handle going at midnight or even 1 a.m. But later than that, no.
And like I’ve complained multiple times here – I can’t nap either. No way, no how. Not even when I miss the entire night, I have to wait it out and try again the next night. It is infuriating.
I like how you described that you feel like your body is only able to fall asleep at that certain time. I feel the same way, my body can only sleep during the night, I swear it’s like some hormones or something are released then and only then. During the day I just don’t feel it, I am tired but not sleepy.
How long have you been like this?
